Time of Angels is detestable, and dull, which is even worse.

[x_losfic]

My ambivalence about Silence in the Library coalesces into a follow up episode with none of the distracting plot elements and the wit and charm of the first one.

* STRONG!FEMALE! character continues to be poor actual character. I'm not a bad feminist for thinking River Song's a Mary Sue. I just can't tolerate the inexplicable, un-earned textual amazingness of her. I couldn't if she had a dick, either. She knows how to pilot a TARDIS better than (any man!!) not just the Doctor, but Romana, the Master, and every other TL who's ever made a dematerializattion noise.

River is Romana I done wrong. Romana I was lovely BECAUSE she was a bit of an ice queen. She was brainier then the Doctor in some ways, but not unbelievably so. She was flawed, and had some sense of background and person-hood. River's action-heroness and smugness is as vile and unappealing as ever Ten's hubris was, and self-satisfied joke w/ Amy about museums being 'how the Doctor keeps score' is nauseating and non-senscal. What does that even mean? That he counts species he's saved? Are we back to awk Planet of the Dead Adrenaline Junkie Doctor  characterization, where the script palpitatingly anounces its EXCITING because viewers at home are too stupid to grok that the game is afoot unless the Doctor's getting all orgasmic at sand storms avec possible earth-destruction while cooing something awkwardly classist at Laura Croft?

* Matt Smith, who I love, is handed a very David Tennant script and left to act his way around it. /Gag/ to 'never put in a trap: MEEEEEEE!'

*Amy Pond still marginalized. While the first episode made me REALLY WANT to get to know her, I don't feel I have done. Not that I necessarily want characterization work to be done via her feelings for the Doctor a la Martha, but I'd like some idea of who she is?

* It's a /point/ for me that, four episodes in, I wouldn't feel comfortable writing either character. Not in terms of voices or characterization. Who's Eleven?

* The weeping angels are over-powered, and Blink looses some of its continuity and charm by their degradation here--it's horror movie sequel effect. In what way are The Kindly Killers the most TERRIBLE THREAT EVAHR AROUND!!? Didn't we do this last week? Weren't there Cushing era COLOR!Daleks? Wasn't I having something like fun?

* On that note: fun. This wasn't any. Not a joke that didn't choke on its own smarm, not a shot that shocked or scared, not a minute of merit. Not an offesively bad episode, but a /dull/ one, which is worse. Better actively bad than terrible blase.  RTD? I almost miss Pip and /Jane/ at this point.

Comments

[skipthedemon.livejournal.com]

I loved River, although I suspect she's lying half the time. Shoot me now, but she reminds me too much of what I love about the Master and Romana put together for me *not* to love her.

And I was riveted every second. Oh, well, reasonable people differ, ect.

[x-losfic.livejournal.com]

Er. How so? Just the... snark!competence? I've no objection to competence, provided the script's earned it. :/

[skipthedemon.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's any more unearned than Random Time Lord reminding the Doctor off the bat that the Master had a higher degree in cosmic science than the Doctor? Or Romana talking about her triple first? River is a very bright linguist and archeologist who's learned to fly the TARDIS sometime in her time-wimey timeline. What's unearned about that?

The Doctor clearly knows more than River on a *lot* of topics, and River says flat out she relies on the Doctor's intuition to save them.

A lot of River's lines I can see the Master saying if we were in a story where they were working together, Delgado!Master era style.

[x-losfic.livejournal.com]

Well, throughout the show TARDIS flight has been this Astoundingly Difficult Thing that humans just haven't managed, despite tech levels, help, cooperation, manuals and some training? It grates to have her be in-script more capable than Adric, Turlough, Nyssa, Tegan, and even young TL!Susan, all of whom have tried at points and failed/achieved only limited success. And whereas Romana and the Master went to TL Uni to major in TARDIS!flying et al, River has... an archeology degree maybe? I just think it's a cheap textual way of asserting badassery--that sound is the breaks on, hur hur. Er, yes, every time the TLs dragged him back to the citadel and shit made that noise, it was... breaks. Yes. Breaks. SIDRATs too? Breeeaks.

Intuition isn't knowledge though? It's a bit of a cheat to toss his intelligence like a pancake, as 12 Angry Men would say. I mean that like this:

1. He's smart in some shit that doesn't get to matter in-story, but
2. to prove that she's cool and worthy of love, in-story River will be better than him at his own balliwick, and
3. he will be allowed to have good instincts, 'intuition,' which is amorphous and doesn't really function as a character trait.

What does she mean? Intuition as in mystical natural ability? Intuition as a biological product of his Timey Whimey brain? Intuition born of centuries of earned experience? It's sort of an empty compliment that fails to actually address the imbalance of ability between them, re: her having abilities that most humans don't, that the Doctor' doesn't have or had to learn (flying the TARDIS, or reading old-high Gallifreyan, which we see three of him working to translate in Five Doctors), or that in the 'breaks' that case no one in the show's entire history has had.

I'm just upset that the general consensus seems to be fandom love and kudos for the most shoddily written episode Moffat's ever done.

[skipthedemon.livejournal.com]

Ah, well, maybe I just have a different view of the Doctor's brilliance than you. Studying something methodically just to gain knowledge doesn't seem to be the Doctor's thing. I see him as loving learning things, in a hands on way, and having good recall once he has learned something. But like, sitting down and writing an academic paper, the sort of research and organization that takes? He'd usually be bored in 5 minutes. I think a lot, maybe even most Time Lords were much better at learning sheer knowledge than he is.

I think his genius is his intuition. I don't mean that is a fuzzy mystical way, I mean he puts together the information he has in new ways no one else ever had, and faster than anyone else can, too. He is the ultimate lateral thinker. BUT. I think I think sometime someone methodical with time and study can get to the same places he does. A different kind of genius, but there are people just as smart as him, probably. He simply is almost hopping from one situation to the next where his quick thinking wins the day.

I can easily see River as one of the methodical ones, and hold up her note taking in her diary as evidence. Again, reasonable people differ.

I've give you the breaks were a cheap laugh. I'm amused by the non-sequential loop there, of leaning about the stabilizers, though. You didn't like it. Fair enough.

[blackletter]

River is a very bright linguist and archeologist

One thing that bothers me a little is that we never really see her being or behaving like an archaeologist or being a badass scholar. Even in SitL, which was ostensibly an archaeological expedition, never *looked* like an archaeological expedition. It felt more like a group of adventurers/tourists than a research team.

I think I'm suffering from the disappointment of thinking, "oh look, a character who is one of my kind! (ie-scholar of ancient civilizations)" only to find that she doesn't look, act, behave, or do any of the things that "my kind" do.

(And I find the combination of linguist and archaeologist a bit funny, because in classics the big joke is how much archaeologists suck at learning languages. They learn them, but slowly, tortuously, and often grudgingly. And only well enough to get by, never the fluency of philologists. On the other hand, they are usually nicer, better people than philologists and capable of normal human interaction.)

Of course, I'm neck deep in the academic nexus of ancient history, philology, and archaeology, so I may have unreasonable expectations of versimilitude. But even Indiana Jones was shown wearing nerdy glasses and tweed and teaching uni classes!

[reasonabsurd.livejournal.com]

It's a /point/ for me that, four episodes in, I wouldn't feel comfortable writing either character. Not in terms of voices or characterization. Who's Eleven?

Speaking as someone who doesn't write, I can't quite pin down his characterization here either. The script was very Ten-ish. And Amy's strongest episode so far was the first one.

I did like the design of the worn out angels. Faceless old statues are creepy, so...yeah.

[x-losfic.livejournal.com]

Yeah that was a good design concept! And I do feel that re: Te and Amy. :/

[neutralalienist.livejournal.com]

I like River, but the focus definitely seems to be more on LOOK HOW IMPRESSIVE SHE IS than, you know, who she actually is. If was got to see her make a mistake or irritate someone I think it would help - it would make her more human.

Romana's dynamic with the Doctor worked because she did throw him off balance, she did do some things better, but at the same time she learned a lot from him. ...I think maybe the problem with River is we're meeting her AFTER she's learned all those things. So things that WOULD be earned aren't, because we didn't get to see them happen.

But yeah, that break thing is bull.

[evilawyer-fic.livejournal.com]

This sounds less than promising. It does, however, point out one of the benefits of being a spoiler whore ---- I will have the lowest of low expectations when I get around to watching. Thanks for the heads up. (Also, there appears to be some danger in re-using characters first introduced in New Who at this point --- too soon to allow us to forget those things that made us cringe a little.)

[mistressssnakey.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with some of your points, I don't completely hate River, I don't like her neither. Mostly I want to give her a chance and see how that works out. Thought I hope they don't make her the Rani The whole driving the Tardis better than every other Time Lord, I mean hey, War Chief you made all this time traveling machines and you don't even know were the brakes are. Also I hardly believe that a human would be able to learn Old Gallifreyan. Knowing the Time Lords it probably is/was a complex language that took years for them to learn in the Academy and River doesn't look that old. I mean even the Master had to wait for all the Doctors to read it.

Also another thing I didn't get was that she has met(if I heard her right) all of the Doctors faces, how come he doesn't even remember her then. Please don't make her a Time Lord, that would break the Sue Meter. Also am I the only one that can't see her as the Doctor's wife? Just trying to imagine him married gives me a headache.

[ushas42.livejournal.com]

Also I hardly believe that a human would be able to learn Old Gallifreyan.

That kinda threw me off for a second too, but in the end it's one of the things I didn't really have a problem with. Because she doesn't have to know the whole language to write that. It's conceivable the Doctor just taught her a few phrases through rote memorization in a "If you need to send me a message, this is how you write 'I'm about to die'," sort of way. I doubt "Hello Sweetie" was on the short list, but she probably insisted.

Anyway, my inner sellotape is showing. My first instinct when it comes to stuff like this is to imagine how it could work, rather than why it really shouldn't.

[vonquixote.livejournal.com]

I doubt "Hello Sweetie" was on the short list, but she probably insisted.

By the time he teaches her, he knows she needs to know.


I don't dislike River, but I can understand the reasons for doing so entirely. There will be more on this - I'm just holding off from reviewing until part two's out.

[blackletter]

Anyway, my inner sellotape is showing.

My inner sellotape patched up the logic by deciding that in the future the Doctor, River, and the Master travel together Shalka-style and the Master teaches River how to fly the TARDIS and how to write "Hello Sweetie" in Old High Gallifreyan.

My sellotape doesn't worry about canonical likeliness.

[time-testudinem.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I just finished watching it, and I kind of liked it.

I didn't like River, her smugness was to much to take, but I felt the story was allowing me to dislike her, so it didn't really detract for me. I also agree that the trap speech at the end was way too Ten. Other than that, I found it pretty awesome. The world building with the church soldiers,and such was pretty enjoyable, and the tone was creepy enough. The Angels aren't very consistent with Blink, but I guess I just decided not to worry about that.

But I also agree on not knowing the characters yet. I have a small Eleven fic in the works, it was going well, until he had a scene of extended dialog. Then it came to a complete stop, because I just can't get it. Hopefully he will shake out in time.

[hobbit-feets.livejournal.com]

Comments about the episode aside, I will say that I'm rather enjoying River at the moment, if only because I don't believe for a minute that she's the Doctor's wife from the future. So I don't read her OMG I AM SO AWESOME nonsense as being a sign that she's supposed to be worthy of the Doctor's love (Which, now rereading your entry... you never actually said. Some other review must have. Whatever)*. My point still stands! I do not trust her, and thus, I am intrigued by her.

Although I do agree with you that the AMAZING TARDIS FLYING SKILLZ was irritating. But then, I hated RTD's thing in Journey's End that a TARDIS was supposed to be piloted by six people, because, whatever, RTD, when have we ever seen a Time Lord do that?

*ETA: Hah, you said it in a comment. I knew I wasn't making things up.

[astronomia]

I am so relieved to see this post! I was starting to wonder what episode everyone else had watched, because I was cringing and wanted this one over within the first few minutes. I'm also so glad you noted the treatment of the Weeping Angels. Eleven snapping at Amy to get back on the TARDIS because of the DANGER!!! left me confused considering he wasn't even that bad last episode facing, you know, the Daleks. I wasn't scared of this episode and mostly spent it wishing River had some sort of character trait at all that wasn't "you should love me because I am perfect." I am dreading the next episode and I must say, having peeked at the summary for the finale episodes and knowing River is in them, I sort of want to bury my head in a pillow.

I'm also feeling like Amy is just...there. I don't like or dislike her. She simply seems to exist so far. I feel like her strongest presence was in The Eleventh Hour

Sorry for random tl;dr I agree with you completely, really.

[melissa-228.livejournal.com]

I'm very very happy to see I'm not the only one to dislike this episode either. I was beginning to think I was the only person on my flist that disliked it, and I can't help but agree with you so much on all of this.

Plus the parking brake thing, the TARDIS has made that sound forever and always whether it's the Doctor flying his TARDIS or the Master or Rani with theirs. And I have a very hard time believing the Rani wouldn't realize she had the parking brake on. So just...no.

And again, my problem with River is she is shown to have no flaws. I love a know-it all as much as the next person and I love someone being obnoxious and pushy if they're shown to be called on these things and shown to be knocked down a peg or two as well as having moments of awesome. In fact, I find the more they screw up and the more flaws they have, the more rewarding it is when they are awesome, and with River it just feels like we're never allowed to have that, which almost feels like Moffat doesn't trust River to stand up as a character either, so he's afraid to show her as anything but perfect.

Also the trend of sidelining companions continues, the "image of an angel becoming an angel" took WAY too long for them to figure out. The fact that River is supposed to be miss awesome archaeologist yet she failed to notice the statues were all wrong in a major way, and just...I really don't feel where the love for this episode came from, so I feel slightly less crazy now thanks to you.

So thank you.

[gothic-hamlet.livejournal.com]

Haven't seen the newest episode yet but yes, the marginalization of Amy is still miffing me off, particularly as I just want to see more of her! She's not a companion in the sense that everyone else from the reboot has been, but is treated as more of the traditional "assistant" that the Doctor holds at arm's length, doesnt' really know anything, and is too fragile to come along on the really dangerous stuff. Traditional being the key word here, because the big vibe I get from season five is a return to the more classic Doctor Who. Episodes that are more about scary crazy space monsters... less super realistic, more cheesy sci fi animation... power Ranger!Daleks that are straight out of the first movie. Etc.

Even with that in mind though, the whole Amy Pond thing still irks me because she most certainly isn't happy to be treated like an assistant, and I'm not too keen on viewing her as one.

2 cents

[asthenie-vd.livejournal.com]

I don't actually dislike River, but her reappearance so far was rather pointless. She didn't really do anything after the initial story exposition finished. So I keep hoping her big scenes, some actual characterisation and whatnot (we still don't know much more about her than we did in season 4. And making her act cleverer than the Doctor isn't going to make her more sympathetic to the Fan either...) will all show up in part 2, but after watching the teaser trailer I'm rather more excited about what the serial is doing to Amy. I want to know more about her, see her react to stuff - like turning into stone.

re: Matt Smith

* Matt Smith, who I love, is handed a very David Tennant script and left to act his way around it. /Gag/ to 'never put in a trap: MEEEEEEE!'
Probably the reason you can't really define his character it? The scripts all feel like they've been written for an earlier Doctor? (plus: I like the way Smith talks and the way he walks, but overall it feels still like he's borrowing a lot off Tennant's Doctor. )

[lilacfree.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with you about both River Song and Amy. Thanks for putting it into words.

[birdsarecalling.livejournal.com]

Um, hi. Here via who_daily! Hope you don't mind a random stranger stumbling by to comment. I've been thirsting for a less-than-glowing review.


It's a /point/ for me that, four episodes in, I wouldn't feel comfortable writing either character. Not in terms of voices or characterization. Who's Eleven?

Thisthisthis. THANK you. I keep seeing people say that they see Six, or Two, or Ten in Matt Smith's performance. Which is all very well and good, but when are we going to get something that's quintessentially Eleven?

I feel that Smith is being hamstrung by scripts full of generic Doctorly moments, and Ten-esque speeches. In the first episode, Eleven showed some interesting character traits that could be built upon -- he's closed-off, he's picky, he's not as cool as he thinks he is -- but the writers aren't doing it. They're hammering in arc words and metaconcepts when they should be setting the foundations of Eleven's personality.

For all of RTD's faults, that's one thing he always did well. Ten was distinct from Nine right off the bat, and none of the three major companions took long to establish their own identities.


I just can't tolerate the inexplicable, un-earned textual amazingness of her.

I'm not completely sold on River Song either, and I hope (likely in vain) that all this epic romance business is a misdirect from Moffat. I'mm be able to stand River's suuuuper-amazingness a lot better if it turns out that she's some conwoman or Time Agent who stumbled onto a cache of info about Gallifrey and the Doctor, and is using it to keep him at her back and call. It would mean that her perfect facade is just that -- a facade.

[wendymr.livejournal.com]

*applause* for all of this, in particular the sidelining of Amy (as is typical of a Moffat script in general where he introduces one of his Amazing Guest Stars of the Week), your observations on River and on the angels.

And, most of all, on this:

* It's a /point/ for me that, four episodes in, I wouldn't feel comfortable writing either character. Not in terms of voices or characterization. Who's Eleven?

I write a LOT of fic. I've written fic for three Doctors, four companions (including Jack) and a host of minor characters. I had assumed, before S5 started, that I'd be writing fic for Eleven and Amy fairly quickly. Yet now I wouldn't even know where to begin. Amy's remained static since episode 1, and Eleven is hit and miss, and rarely hits a big note effectively - I see this, personally, as much due to poor acting as to inconsistent writing. As someone says upthread, Eccleston and Tennant both put their stamp on the role very, very quickly. Smith hasn't yet. In a way, it might have been easier for Eccleston as he didn't have an immediate predecessor in the role to be compared with; yet he also had the harder job of attracting an audience to the series - both brand-new viewers and old-time fans who were ready to be very critical of the new Doctor and writers.

Thanks for posting - as someone else who is less than impressed by S5, it's good to see something different among all the posts of glee.